First of all I know its going to be pain in the arse and admins wont do anything due to having no time but who knows maybe they will.

But here is my idea and i am sure 90% of people going to agree with this. ( 10% the admins ofc )

IDEA : Matches that were played against teams that had cheater in , should be either defaulted or deleted.
ALSO teams that had cheaters in their ranks should be punished. Even if the clan didnt know about having a cheater in their team there should be some sort of punishment.
Maybe roll back all their points to 1000 or w.e default is.

AUTO BAN 47 mill. YEAH I WENT THERE!

No.

 Phantom
That is my thing :(

 Xano
Now it's ours.

in a fair world that would be a good idea but its also unfair what if the cheating player is a recent member or only did it for the odd game to go back months and get defaulted for every game ( for teams who stay playing in ungl ) is very unfair on the remaining members.

The other side of the coin is if you thought somebody was suspicious you should have got the demo and reported the ticks to the admin, theres so many games nowdays where people on 40 even 50mill accounts are really dodgey but i just cant be bothered to go through each demo and highlight each incident so i just accept the results. I shouldnt get rewarded for my laziness with somebody else busting them.

 mr.viruS
I somewhat agree with you, if you played against a team who you later found out had a cheater playing for them you should get the default 1-0 win or the match deleted.

I also think anyone with a 40mil account or higher is up to something but its not fair just to ban them without proof, I think you shouldnt be allowed to play in the league unless you have had a certain number of hours played on counter strike source though.

That's a stupid ass idea. Punish teams for having a cheater?

As someone who recently had one, we reported it as soon as we found out and had no idea previous to it, why should we be punished when /we/ done nothing wrong?

There's very little ways to be 100% sure that someone isn't cheating these days, are we just to get dicked everytime we're taken for a ride?

Not to mention so many of the games would have been won either way and we won by such large margins that the cheater's input was hardly necessary (including one where he left and we continued to win rounds with four, funny that). I like how one of the matches we smashed in regardless of him was against you. Ulterior motives much?

I hope you get a cheater on your team at some point and don't know, bet you wouldn't be so keen on having your results and points slashed/wiped then. =)

 [Ð]
You would not be "punished" if the fixture was deleted entirely. If you played against a team of 2 cheaters and 3 legit players and you lot because of those 2 cheaters then that team does not deserve the win on their page.

Of course you probably dont know if your team mate is cheating but it would not punish anybody if the fixture was deleted or a rematch was forced perhaps?

If the fixture is deleted you lose points? No? Sounds like punishment to me.

Who is to say whether or not that is actually fair? Say I play with you, and you're cheating your arse off on my team, walling and aimbotting all over the place but you only get like...five kills the entire game somehow and the rest of the team pull the victory out.

Do I still deserve to lose that victory? I don't think so.

Seriously, I can understand removing or defaulting if it's like, an entire team of cheaters, or one guy slaughtering everyone and practically winning the entire fixture all on his lonesome as everyone else slayers.

As it happened with us, this wasn't the case, and we didn't need a cheater whatsoever to win. We don't even have any idea of whether or not he cheated in certain games as he would come on and be dire or average quite often but blame it on being stoned or something of the sort.

I'm also against the idea of any such decision now effecting games past, it should work like a law or amendment in that it only applies to future cases, not past ones that have already had decisions made on them.

 [Ð]
If the fixture is deleted then you would lose the points gained illegitimately (if the cheater was playing in that game) so really your team would not deserve those points, also if you read my post it says "If you lost because of the cheaters" meaning if the cheaters were clearly cheating in that specific game.

I don't see a problem with a forced rematch when both teams are ready though. The result of that game would then replace the original fixture.

If you'd read my post, you'll see that I mentioned just because you have a cheater on your team does not mean they are responsible for the victory in any way.

Don't start pulling that move if you're not going to take care to avoid it yourself.

EDIT: The issue is, how much work is it to define at which point a team has lost /BECAUSE/ of a cheater?

It's an awful lot of demo-looking and chance-weighing and all sorts of retarded bull**** when you can completely avoid such a backwards method of policing cheaters in the first place.

Think of it this way, if our team had known that we were going to get ****ed over for reporting him, what would the point of us reporting him be? If anything, it's encouragement for the rest of a team to pick up hacks and go for gold rather than the ****-pile they'll be stuck with at the end of having everything nullified.

Stupid, stupid idea.

 [Ð]
Read what I said again... "If you lose because of the cheaters" In other words, if the cheaters were the cause of the result.

I edited before you posted that. I wasn't finished.

 [Ð]
I agree it would be a hell of a lot of effort and teams would not report their own players if they found out, but I wouldnt say it is encouragement for people to pick up hacks because you would rather have 3 wins removed because of a cheater than 10 moves removed.

At the moment it is pretty much up to players to decide whether a demo should be reviewed or not, they provied the ticks and the admin goes over it and confirms whether the player was cheating or not.

Of course it would be a hell of a lot of work but what is stopping the admins from creating admin teams e.g. one team for reviewing demos, one team for forum administration etc. I'm sure when UNGL is recruiting more admins they get hundreds of applications and they have to hand pick the best candidates so why can they not select a few more trusted people for different teams of administration?

Because at the end of the day it's always going to be down to one guy going "Well I don't like X so I think I'll give the win to Y." if X has a cheater, no matter how much it mattered.

Where do you draw the line at what is considered "cause of the result"? It's impossible to police effectively and begs to be corrupted.

 [Ð]
That is why I said trusted people.

If the cheater was carrying the team by a fair bit then the cause of the win would most likely be because of the cheater but if everyone had a fair score and there wasnt any defining moments where he could have changed the entire game in his favor then the result would stay as it is.

"Trusted people"

Trusted by /who/? What kind of idealistic world are you living in?

This isn't going to happen.

[quote]"What kind of idealistic world are you living in?" -
 [Ð]
27/03/2012 [/quote]

Seriously? This would be the most monumentally epic of fails for a league. Go suggest this to ANY other league and you'll be laughed out of there. Wow.

[D] is a spastic :/

 steven-
Don't resort to insults please. Be an adult about the discussion. I feel as though
 [Ð]
has a very good, reasonable point. You need to understand the ramifications to the other 80% of a team (4/5 players, Assuming only one player in 'Team X' is cheating). It's a lot of time wasted for them if they are oblivious to the fact that someone is cheating within their team, No? Okay.

Let me put it like this:
You're in a team, you play 500 games on UNGL and climb in the ranks very well.
One player in your team has been caught cheating and you were unaware. You now go back to being a nil-nil team because of this. Assuming each game is 30 minutes that's 15,000 minutes (250 Hours, 10.5 Days) of playing you have wasted because 1/5th of your team was not a favourable character.

How would you feel if we just bumped you to nil-nil? Pleased? I don't think so.

[i] The numbers used in the examples here are approximate [/i]

Also approaching this from a technical point of view: Setting up, coding and devising a system to identify what players played in what in what games would be horrible. Example below:

In one year 'Team X' rotated between having up to 7 members in their roster at one time. Playing with a different core in an inconsistent manner. A player (Player Y) of which has only played in 10% of the games that 'Team X' has played has now been identified as a cheater. How are we, as a league to confirm which games Player Y did and did not play in and adjust the results accordingly? or do we just reset all to nil-nil? It's not reasonable, or fair.

05:54 - [Ð]: Why am I a spastic then bro
05:54 - STEVENHAHA: idk
05:54 - STEVENHAHA: i didnt read ure post
05:54 - STEVENHAHA: i just thought u was lmao
05:54 - [Ð]: You ****ter, LOL
05:55 - STEVENHAHA: lmfao

Preserved for baddy outing.

 Xano
Well i didnt read D's posts in full but ive heard that only a game can be defaulted if a demo review was made or they were caught cheating b4 the game was accpeted the score maybe im not perfectly right on that sorry but i didnt know u guys are considering changing ure rules ? or this is a suggestion from D ?

05:56 - STEVENHAHA: u post on ungl
05:56 - STEVENHAHA: spastic
05:56 - [Ð]: =D
05:56 - STEVENHAHA: was sticking up for xano cause ure a spaz
05:56 - STEVENHAHA: and he flames me
05:56 - STEVENHAHA: WCYD
05:56 - [Ð]: ?
05:56 - [Ð]: Xano is on my side bro
05:57 - STEVENHAHA: This isn't going to happen.

"What kind of idealistic world are you living in?" - [Ð] 27/03/2012
05:57 - STEVENHAHA: Seriously? This would be the most monumentally epic of fails for a league. Go suggest this to ANY other league and you'll be laughed out of there. Wow.
05:57 - [Ð]: ....HE'S QUOTING ME AS SOMETHING HE AGREE WITH
05:57 - [Ð]: LMAO
05:57 - [Ð]: AGREES*
05:58 - STEVENHAHA: i should really read threads b4 i post.
05:58 - STEVENHAHA: hmmm
05:58 - [Ð]: Yes.

[simg]http://www.affiliateimprov.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/double-facepalm.jpeg[/simg]

gotta say i agree with
 [Ð]
and

 Xano
here , not just because it was my team that this thread is based upon , but in general. for example
 steven-
do you remember a couple of players called VEX and DUO ?? hmm how about the last team they played for got all thier results stripped away ??

it wouldnt be fair on the rest of the team would it ??

(i hope you are reading this with sarcasm steven :P)

Ooooooooooo

and also i am 99.9% sure that every single person who plays mixes/ leagues etc has played with a cheater and not known about it. :(

so much text...

if you played with a cheater you should lose all your wins, i dont see how you can argue otherwise

 ash :D
why should we be punished because of a retard who we had no idea was a haxoring piece of **** ??? if you read the other posts you will see that WE caught him and WE reported him , in short we did what we could to rid the game of another cheating idiot

Look, whether he was cheating or not its not as if he was an amazing cheater. They were beatable at the time and other teams have no reason not to beat them. May I add teams don't intentionally go around picking up cheaters in the hope it may win them some games.

 ash :D
Would be hard for us to know if he played in what game. if you have more than 5 members on your team profile also. which would take up basically all of our time.

Then we would get cried at in the shoutbox for not fixing other stuff. and watching demos.

think its a good idea, but looking at how it would work from xano, would be a right ball ache. The whole argument of what one cheater did to "win" the game is irrelevant tho, as you cant see what they are calling, they don't have to kill everything in sight be classed as winning the game. ie if your team is doing fakes against a team with a cheater and he is using radar hack nothing else, stopping his teammate rotating because he knows its a fake is a massive advantage.

[i]IDEA : Matches that were played against teams that had cheater in , should be either defaulted or deleted. [/i]

I agree the game the cheater played in should be defaulted and only that game. (ie the one he got caught in)

As for punishment, I personally like how ED handles it (go figure) No punishment is handed out apart from a warning, unless it was the clan leader.
If the clan leader was the one cheating the team is removed.

as far as WE and libra can tell it was only the one game he cheated in , if there is proof he was cheating all along then i reluctantly agree that all games he played in where libra caught him cheating should be defaulted , even though it will cripple our teams results.

and as for punishment , the damage to our reputation is punishment enough i believe , we are a decent honest team but from now on every time we win a game a demo will be submitted to an admin and aspersions cast upon us.

you would not believe how much hassle this has caused , tbh i wish i never met him.

Can't be bothered to read all the comments so far so I'll just put what I think regardless of what has been said.

Firstly I think it's a terrible idea, just imagine the number of hours admins would have to spend reviewing demos to confirm that the 'cheater' did indeed play that game (that is if you want the system to be fair, which I'm sure you do); it wouldn't even be a simple case of checking the start of the demo to see if he joined up, as the team in question could have lost the first 5 rounds (all of which the cheater played) before he left and they went on to win every round after that.

This also completely ignores the fact that it's very possible that the cheater didn't cheat in the majority of the games, and therefore justice would once again be denied.

You also can't underestimate the damage having a cheater in a team (even for a short time and without the knowledge of the other members) would have to that team, for a start searching for a new 5th is a hard job as well as their reputation being damaged.

In all fairness if you didn't send a demo review on a player that was banned after the fixture I wouldn't change it, as both sides have to submit a result and by doing that everyone agrees the game was played fairly. If you think someone was hacking during a game then I suggest you review the demo and send any ticks to an admin, otherwhise there is no proof that the banned player actually cheated in your fixture. Furthermore to that if we was going to default all the past games that one of the banned players was in it would become a stupid amount of work for an admin.

So guys in future I would recommend if you think there's a person cheating in one of your games please review the demo and supply an admin with the relevant information.

This is my view anyway the other admins might see it differently.

 Trooper
dont think it would be fair at all *kinda made me cry abit in that statement* :(

 Chaddy
still think thats the only way it should be done on demo review

 steven-
love you bud

 PreDator
good post

 Trooper
wuv u

Everybody is saying that it would be unfair to bring the team back to nil nil but what I said before was, if the cheater was the cause of the win. If the cheater had OBVIOUSLY caused the win and the other team didnt have a chance because of him then the points the cheaters team had gained would be unfair.

Should you default/delete every game? No, only the ones that were obviously won because of the cheating player.

Xano, you say if this was suggested to any other league then the idea would just be laughed away, this may be true but other leagues that have a worse anti cheat than libra are not anywhere near as big as ungl and leagues that a bigger and more known than ungl have better anti cheats. Libra is a good anti cheat but it is not reliable, if a team were to play and all their screenshots were black and they won, they would still get the points for the win. For all we know they could have been wallhacking and aimbotting the entire game but admins say "this is a libra bug", but seriously there is so many causes of a black screenshot that most people know all the settings that cause libra to take a black screenshot so what is stopping them turning on that setting and then playing with hacks? Libra needs a serious update.

Already covered that
 UKAds
, where do you draw the line of "OBVIOUSLY"? It's still a system begging to be abused hardcore, totally reliant upon the judgement of someone who could be poised against you for silly reasons.

As it is, defaulting games that have been held open because the other team suspects and banning the cheater seems very fair to me.

It should follow how red-ticked players are done, if the other team accepts the challenge + result it can't be undone.

 [Ð]
I think if you have to question whether it was obviously the cheaters fault for the win or not, then the answer is no.

But again I have already said to find trusted people as admins and your reply was "Trusted by /who/? What kind of idealistic world are you living in?". You are telling me that there is nobody that is trustworthy in your life? It is not a idealistic world to have people you can trust.

People seem to trust the current admins at the moment when they decide who should get the win after a demo has been submitted so why is it so hard to find a few more people to do the same thing?

It's an idealistic world when you assume that your idea of someone trustable as an admin is going to be universally trustable and make fair decisions for /everyone/. I wasn't saying I don't trust anyone.

Sure, I could pick Admin X and figure he's a pretty cool guy who will judge my decisions fairly but he might have a huge dislike for Team Y and maybe make a decision that was wildly unfair for them, just because of this dislike.

Most people play favourites, it's just how things work.

As for trusting the current admins at the moment, what happens at the moment is on a much smaller, less devastating scale and does not enter the territory of punishing a team, it can be shrugged off easier and people who are innocent of the wrongdoing can move on.

With the proposed idea of a large number of results being defaulted or tossed out? Yeah, that could ruin quite a lot. Especially when the judge is human.

 [Ð]
One guy may dislike the team that played fairly and give the win the to the hacking team but if one team strongly dissagrees with this then they can ask another admin to go over the result again.

Before you argue that this is to much work for the admins then I kind of agree but the admins know what they are getting into when they take on the role and nothing is stopping them quitting the role of admin if the work is to much.

If trying to make the league a fair place to play for all teams to much work for the admins then they should not have applied for the job in the first place.

With how much people cry at the admins to do simple stuff already, and the fact they can't follow simple directions and click the link for PMing an admin rather than spamming the chatbox I can't really see them handling the system you propose very well either.

I see every time an Admin makes a decision /against/ the team that reported it, them then going on to harrass another admin to come judge the first admin's decisions. It'll get to the point where they either scrap the whole system or decide to just default every game to appease the non-cheaters. Which you know, would be a fine way to handle it if there wasn't the chance of the other team having one cheater and the rest of the people being oblivious to it.

I guess it's just a line of fairness we're not going to come to an agreement on, that and the micro-management aspect.

 Mati
You might the only one who read my comment. I <3 the people in this thread with "TLDR BUT ILL JUST RAGE ON ANYWAY!"

Should just have anyone clicking on the thread be forced to read

 Xano
's post to continue...

Don't know why the second and third posts of this thread weren't enough :/

 [Ð]
I know some people are complete idiots and spam the chatbox hoping to get an admins attention but instead of writing "PM an admin" back to them change the rules so the first admin to see it gags them automatically with the reason set as asking for admin in chatbox or something.

Like I said it is a lot of work for admins to do, but it is their job to do so, they chose to apply to be an admin and they should expect to work with the "simpler" players aswell as the players who actually know the rules.

I say if one player is caught cheating on a team and the other 4 players were unaware's, the correct thing to do if you can be bothered, is to review the demo of the games they won (up to the teams who lost the game). If they find any ticks of that player cheating, they should have the rounds taken off them which he has cheated in.

I am in the same team as Trooper and Docco. This seems fair to me.

 LuckyLine
hell no. lol.

 BarryScott
If a team is that worried about one loss on their team page and they find out that the team that beat them had a hacker playing for them, they should be able to report it and ask for the source tv demo, review it themselves and then send the demo to an admin with the ticks.

I mentioned before that it is an admins job to keep the league a fair place to play for everybody aswell as monitoring the community on the website, personally I think the suggestion in this post I made requires more work on the teams behalf than the admin who is reviewing the demo with the ticks already written down for them. If the team cant be bothered to review the demo and find the ticks that they think made a significant difference to the game then they dont deserve the fixture changed.

 UKAds
It would be the teams own fault for accepting the result in the first place if they thought something was wrong.

If teams think something is wrong then they should ask for the demo and look at it. If they cant be bothered to do that then they have no right to get a result that's already been accepted, changed. Regardless of what reason.

 Bradlewis
True it is the teams fault for accepting it but what if the result was forced by an admin before the player was found to be cheating?

You say they have no right to get a result thats already been accepted, I disagree with this simply because I dont see why the team who had a cheater win the game for them should have any right to the points the cheater gained for their team.

 UKAds
If the team who thought something was dodgy didn't do anything to conflict the game in time for an admin to accept it, then again, i stand by my point of them not having the result changed.

Admins are not here to babysit people, they are here to help. If a team thinks another team is cheating yet they dont alert an admin about it/ conflict the game or ask's for the demo but just waits for another team to do something about it, they dont deserve their result to be changed. Regardless of if a cheater won the other team the game or not.
The teams laziness of not reporting it, bothering to view the demo, report the team or player removes their right to having any result changed and if the team didn't think he was dodgy then chances are he didn't hack in that game and the result shouldn't be changed anyway.

 Bradlewis
But the team who gained the results by cheating still deserve those points?

There has been plenty of times where I have requested the other team give us the stv demo but they say "sorry we didnt record you can have the default win" or if they have all black screenshots they say "libra bug". There has also been a time where I have submitted the demo and the admin said "everything is fine" and forced the result for them to win even though they had no screenshots ever uplaoded. That result was accepted even though we tried to not allow it.

You're telling me we would not deserve the points if we had gone through all of that and it was a admin who decided the result and not us?

 UKAds
im not saying that at all because you would have conflicted the game and admins have seen fit that everything is fine.

 Bradlewis
But everything was not fine. What is the point in an anti cheat that you do not need to use? If we are not happy with a result, it is impossible for us to hold it out until one of their players gets banned (if they were cheating), so in the end we are forced to settle with the admins decision whether its right or wrong, but if you later found out that the player was infact cheating and the admin who accepted your fixture was wrong, you are now stuck with the wrong doing of an admin even though you did try to make it right.

 UKAds
well the guy wouldn't of necessarily been cheating in your match.

If an admin has viewed the demo and come to the agreement that the person wasn't cheating in that match then you need to believe them.

From my own experience at Enemydown a minimum of 3 admins needs to view a cheating conflict. So it is not just 1 admin viewing the demo and coming to a conclusion on his/her own. I assume it is the same here, so if they have came to a group decision of someone not hacking in a demo then 9 times out of 10 they will be right.

Im starting to get confused of your point now. So what you are saying is, a group of admins said he wasnt hacking, They push the score through then its found out he IS hacking?
It still doesnt mean he was hacking in the demo they saw.

As to your questions about the Anitcheat, Admins can see alot of things regardless of if the screenshots are black or not.
If the league admins are happy that a person had legit issues with their libra and are happy to let it slide after viewing a demo then you need to be happy about it aswell. Admins wont let a hacker purposely play in their league..

I can see your point of [i]sometimes[/i] it could be a little bit unfair but the chances of a group of admins watching a demo and looking over the persons anticheat logs making a mistake is very very little.
At the end of the day, if you dont like the rules that have been around for years and you cant trust the admins, dont play.

The rules are not going to change, the admins have said so.

 Bradlewis
Maybe he wasnt cheating but if you had read through everything I have already gone over before you replied to me then you would have seen that I said if the cheater was obviously the cause of the team winning then the fixture should have to be replayed/defaulted/deleted.

I'm 90% sure that it only requires one admin to go over a demo on UNGL for the admin to decide whether or not he is cheating, maybe if that admin thinks he is cheating then it gets passed onto someone else, but if you found out that the person you thought was cheating got banned for cheating then you would want a second opinion no matter what the first admin said before hand.

As for the screenshots, of course libra sees more than just what is open on your screen such as processes that are currently running, but most hacks know this is how plenty of anti cheats work so they cover it up very cleverly.

What I said about a team not having ANY screenshots, I mean none what so ever. They had played fair few games and not a single screenshot had ever been uploaded, so chances are they didnt even run libra while they were playing that game. How is libra supposed to find a dodgy process running if it is not even open?

I know you have not mentioned it yet but the worst argument against this idea is "That will take to much time" or "That is to much work"... It is their job to do so, if they don't like it, leave. This might sound a bit harsh but it is true, nobody is forcing them to do this, they have all volunteered.

Edit: If the rules are never going to change then what is the point in this entire thread, it should just be locked from now on.

 UKAds

[quote]I'm 90% sure that it only requires one admin to go over a demo on UNGL for the admin to decide whether or not he is cheating[/quote]

wrong its 3

 d4z
Is that if the first admin thinks he is cheating or for any demo submitted?

Yeah... so basically its what Barryscot said and the way EVERY league is does.
[i]
The ruling is simple:

If the result has NOT been accepted; default
If the result has been accepted and was disputed; default
If the result has been accepted and not disputed; no change
[/i]

Its pretty damn simple to put it nicely.

It wont get changed, so all this is pretty pointless ^^

no it's all demos. Even if the 1st admin says no it still needs 2 more.

 d4z
Fair enough.

Could you lock the thread please seeing as it is a pointless discussion if the rules will never change.

 UKAds
i will but i need the opinion of 2 more admins 1st.

siiighhh, just spit my tea over my monitor :\

damn you d4z

 Bradlewis
sorry i have a dry sense of humour :(

 d4z
oh gosh d4z you're hilarious!!

I don't trust the opinion of the other admins, can we make a new admin to ask that I can trust?

 dronee
I know you can check if libra is running or not, I was saying it sarcastically.

So if it is so easy for you admins to check out whether libra was running or not, why dont you? I'm not saying you specifically drone but just check this out as an example.

Fixture: http://ungl.org/Fixture/33012
Player: http://ungl.org/user/libra/8337

Check the dates and the amount of games that this player has played.

Multiple admins were messaged about this fixture after the result was forced, and nothing was done, so what are the admins actually doing?

lol pruned.

 dronee
You can see the results and the players libra, I messaged two admins within a week of the forced result so there is no excuse really.