So, I thought with the debates occurring in some of the threads, usually started by myself (guilty as charged) I thought I'd start up a thread which it's sole purpose is to discuss these things.

The topic of debate, which I shall set is this;

Has movie making progressed since the early days of Quake movies, or has it slowly gotten worse?

In my opinion, movies peaked at around 2007/2008. Anything beyond that for me, hasn't really been any good. Yes the editing requires a certain amount of skill and practice, but it's in excess. People are taking advantage of Adobe software, Cinema 4D, Partical illusion and other software of relevance, seemingly on a mission to give every gamer epilepsy.

My point being that recent and future gaming edits are and will be 100% over exaggerated with effects. Making it almost impossible to view properly, and in a lot of cases, it's to cover up the fact that they're cheating in order to achieve these frags. I speak mainly for the CSS scene when I say this as I can't vouch for many other game types.

If you compare recent full length frag movies(6minutes or more) to past movies, the frags are worse, the editing is exaggerated and the time taken to actually make them is less. Another thing with the source movie making scene is the reluctance to actually make a movie, more than 1 minute long. It seems people get an outrages deagle kill and make a movie of it, why? Surely you'd get more enjoyment out of watching a whole movie of insane shots, or decent game play than 20seconds of demo smooths and 3 seconds of actually footage? An example would be Incorporated 2, ok, so some of the frags are blatantly cheated, but it's a very well made movie, it's entertaining and it's quite possibly the best CSS movie released about "amateur" players.

The 1.6 movie scene has got it spot on. There are hardly any movies which look like they've been cheated or faked, there isn't a movie released every 5 minutes and the movies that are released, have extremely high quality frags.

I'm going to put a list of movies up for you guys to check out, it's a list of my personal favourites from 1.6, hopefully you guys will understand why I prefer them to what's being made today by CSS movie makers and will appreciate how insane the frags are.

Mourning Walls Collapse, I consider this to be the greatest gaming movie ever made, the frags, the editing, the atmosphere generated by the intro and the music, everything about it is almost perfect. Made by cRZYFST

EVE, if you're going to over edit, at least do it like this, it truly is a masterpiece, it's how syncing should be done. Also made by cRZYFST

Mousesports - Ready, willing and able One of the best professional team movies, I've ever seen. The frags aren't exactly spectacular, but they're pivotal in the match. Made by moswanted & kaLa

Annihilation II, a movie based on high end 1.6 players from LAN and from online qualifiers. Made by Dager

Single Gaming 3 : StreL This needs no introduction, it's easily the most creative movie made. Made by MiX[ep]

Fury 3, this has possible the most insane frags from a professional player in a movie ever. Not sure who made this, but it's a nice clean and simple edit.

Pondfiller 2 Easily the best awping movie there will ever be, although it was surrounded by controversy when he failed to perform at LAN. Made by Pondfiller

Agreed.

I don't think it's a problem with movie making in general, the whole cheating movie hero thing seems to be affecting Source and, to some extent, CoD4 and ET.

Quake, DoD and CS 1.6 don't seem to have the same problem that CS:S does, Quake's movie scene had a bit of a dip between 2004 and 2008 but that coincided with an actual dip in Quake's popularity. Quake Live has made Quake a popular title again and the movies coming out are reflecting that.

hsf_ i agree with you 101% :)

LOL? editing this days i not like that to cover cheated frags come on... editing skill has improved a lot. Using more programs and more effects IN THE RIGHT WAY has made movies and clips ****ing amazing , + more realistic + no sync with music in old movies. But yes people inculding my self ended up watching the edit instead of the frags... only movie the frags took me away was inc2 that was cheated .

I can see where you're coming from, but I personally like the newer stuff. Simple because, being new to the whole editing scene it's all i've really known.

 forsakEN +1

Theres much more that can be added to clips to give them the edge. editing is no longer about showing your epic 2 minute 5 man with an ak that you got at lan. its about editors experimenting with techniques, and styles.

Most editors now actually want to pursue a career in editing, albeit for most it is just hobby. Vegas is EXTEMELY limiting in what editors can do to make their effects. Take real movies for example. Mainstream movies now are MUCH more dependent on special effects than they previously were, and they majority of people go to see these films, because of the amazing special effects. Thats how it is. The only difference between an old film and an old source movie, is that an old film can have a better storyline and acting than a modern movie, which it can be credited for.

The problem with some of the old movies (like Anniahalation II which i just got a glimpse of) doesnt "over edit" but he seems to use the some overlay again and again. I am all for an over edit such as failure57's, but also for a "subtle edit" such as fragstorm, where there is WAYY more going on than meets the eye, and it is an amazing production because of that. For me Anniahalation II does neither really and the quality isnt great. That isnt a digg at the editor, its the timespan it was created in.

Another thing is that, long movies arent as desirable to make anymore. They tend to be low quality / rushed / bad if over about 2/3 minutes. Most editors (like myself) really enjoy a short clip (like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viLRtOxdIlE) because it has a really great sensation to it. When movies are done good though (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4SSybLtwKs) they can combine this same feel.

People WANT to see outrageous frags, which thanks mostly to kRYSTAL and xIME (the people who have really inspired modern editing) (oh and hacking) has become available. Take kennens awp deags for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW_f2uMRNJg people want to see that. This is because mainly it is interesting to watch, what youtube is for. Yes you may have got a sick 5 man clutch against an EMS team using your gamesense , knowledge of the map. But it took 1 minute. That is NOT desirable to watch anymore, even though the frags have taken more skill to make over kennens 5 man against an unknown team. its all about the "WOW" factor.

There are however exceptions, and one of those is Rak by Dany Baron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m76QxBj0oyA. Rak is an EPS player, and still manages to pull off insane shots. This is coupled with Danys subtle editing, and has a really nice, clean, high quality feel too it, bear in mind a lot of those demos were POVS.

In conclusion really, the way people want to view edits has changed, with movies becoming shorter as it is more desirable by the growing community. The ever growing availabilty of software is just making editors experiment with more techniques more and extend their abilities. We all have different tastes, because we are all different people. We also have been watching these movies from all different times (i personally started when INC 2 came out). I have also noticed that (most) UK players dont like over edits at all, it is more in the european scene.

EDIT: i love streL i have to admit, that is fantastic

well said eka:)

 forsakEN , are you sure about that? How many movie makers have been "busted" or accused of cheating with significant reason to claim they're cheating? How many movie "hero's" or "Youtube" hero's have been in the same boat? This is primary reason why CSS has been hit so hard with the likes or organner, x22, mumble.exe, ventrilo.exe, enhanced-aim and project-7. They all want to be "movie stars" and they all want to be known in the scene by being in a few frag clips and seen on youtube. It's fast becoming the sole reason CSS is declining in popularity.

I understand that this is a new era for editing, I also understand that it takes skill and hard work to create clips/movies like that. But they're boring... It's the same spray downs, the same luck shots and the same players getting these types of frags vs the same unknown players in the last movie. It's disappointing and boring. For me, getting a spray down in good, but I'd much rather see someone picking apart a team of high quality players and out gaming them. Not out-wasda'ing or out lucking the same low or mid skilled mixes off of 5on5.css. I guess in a way, it's not the actually editing that's the problems, it's the lack of quality frags in movies.

+1 to the people having different tastes, as some people might like the crazy flash flash flash can't see the kills videos, while I like the cleaner edits, such as the Vitriolic TeX video.

hsf man thats bull**** a movie maker dosnt need to cheat for frags to get in the movie scene he can just get demos from others... im not saying people dont cheat for clips , but saying that moviemaking now is all about editing cheated frags is bull**** and if u enjoy those movies u posted wich are ugly and not recent movies dont know what to say ;p

 forsakEN , I didn't say anything about all moviemakers being cheaters... I said there is a large portion of them which cheat. Or make movies of cheated frags.

If you actually read what I said, instead of putting words in my mouth, you might of had a case and we could of had a decent debate about it. But because of that, I'm not going to take anything you say seriously. Sorry.

I know nothing about cheated frags, and using better players names...

[youtube]GlheFVADJBk[/youtube]

ROFL HAHAHA

[youtube]xEFSSdxno0c[/youtube]

h4cK sH00t3R

I thought you'd like it :)

my mini movie.

http://www.wipido.com/video/jwdfZ6BhbUD7

and

10th place in december tek9 challange

http://i55.tinypic.com/2zzkjtv.png

http://www.wipido.com/video/FZGeCmJhRohE

if anyone want to make me a movie pm me

[youtube]jF7qqdJ1mgM[/youtube]

To be fair I don't want to watch some random ********s making demos with their low mates in a gather to try and get known by a bunch of 12 year old kids. Don't say good frags can't be made interesting when they quire clearly can. This is a perfect example of a well edited movie with good frags that is definitely interesting to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxUHbFhkq1g

A player movie as well ex6tenz from verygames one of the best players in the world right now easily an interesting movie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJQoGXRCen8&feature=related

 Anto Agreed for once tbh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDwxyNA3tK0&feature=sub

You hardly get to see the frags your watching an edit not a frag movie there... You can tell the frags are **** straight away when they guy pushing long corner with an awp and the other team are just stood out like retards :S Guy pushes lower with an awp... don't even need to explain that one and 2 guys run past oblivious and 1 guy tries to jumping AK him wtf is this.

 Anto i dont know how you can even say that? :s

ill bung a load of demos onto windows moviemaker if you like.

There is like 2 seconds cut in between the awp frags all you see is the shot getting fired not how awkward it is for the guy lining it up we arent watching the frags we are watching the edit.

 Anto im sorry to offend if you have a slight eyesight problem. but every frag is extremely clear to see. i am assuming you are taking about forsaken's clip and not mine.

if you are talking about mine, then yes you are watching the edit. tbh same with forsakens clip to an extent. that is the whole point of "editing" a clip. and why people go "nice edit mann"

Yes all I am saying is watching those clips you are watching the edit not the frags as any one with half a brain knows there **** frags.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^

What actually happened to clean edits, of decent players?

Now all you see is over exaggerated edits of ****ters

 Old 1) because there are no decent players anymore

2) noone wants to see 2 minute long glock 5 mans

3) clean edits only existed before because people were too **** to use software

if you are on about;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbb_VYajSn8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUk7WG070rM

this type of edit, then it still exists, you just arent looking hard enough for it.

 hrizn , clean edits have nothing to do with the movie makers being "too **** to use software" If you look at serp-, his edits are clean, yet he's doing movies for dumbazo, vitriolic as well as making a movie for wT and PhP. Also, mak3m is a clean editor and he's made movies for pro players also, such as paradox, and I don't mean that **** faced dribbler who owns this site(I JOKE MENZ) clean edits are preferred by the better players, from what I've seen anyway.

serp makes movies. if he did a 30-40 sec clip with that style it would be ****. you may not notice, but serp uses subtlety, as i mentioned in my original counter-argument, to give his clips an edge.

true that

so if an edit is good and effected it means its cheated?wow nice thinking keep going

 forsakEN

ye, as long u dont edit affeCted LOL

 hrizn , I think personally that you're in the same boat as  cal , where all you've really known is the recent editing style. You've not been around long enough to see the development of movie making and haven't seen the decrease of frag quality. At least you're explaining and giving reason as to why you like it, unlike  forsakEN who just has an ignorant opinion of movies pre-2006, calling them "ugly" which is absolutely absurd. Movies like Mourning Walls Collapse were the movies which have inspired the majority of movie makers to start doing it.

Movies like Incorporated 2 and eGnition 2 are clearly attempted remakes of it, you can tell this just by seeing the style of the edit and the way it's layered. The effects are basic, easy on the eye but suit what's happening with in the movie. All these random flashing, over syncing and colours which are over exposed are just in all fairness, annoying and uncoordinated.

I can appreciate the skill required to edit like this, and only using them in a small clip is acceptable, especially for an "application clip" for a movie team. You'd want to show that you can basically do everything.

In terms of creativity for a small clip, I'd have to say that this is probably one of the best, at the time, it was a new look at editing and since then, it has been copied quite a lot, but it's pure genius on c12's part.

[youtube]FPFxd7XdWLg[/youtube]

 forsakEN Its nothing to do with that, I'd rather see the frags, than watch it to see how long it takes before I end up having a seizure. Secondly, have you every actually read a full post in this topic yet before replying, or do you just see someone say "cheated frags" and reply with an ignorant response?

 forsakEN Stop being igorant, it's "ugly".

 panz0r ahaha;p

 Old So you wont watch transformers 3d cause its has awsome effects and ull match a black and white movie ?

sorry mate i like what entertains me the most... and an editor edits so people see his edit and skill then he thinks about the guys frags , thats how i am atleast

 forsakEN , you're attempting to compare a CSS frag clip with a movie? We're talking about being able to see the frags, not having an epileptic fit whilst watching because someone has decided to throw in a disco ball in front of a frag clip.

Using effects in a movie, like the one you mentioned is different to having an overly exaggerated flash effects in a css movie...

 Rings of Saturn lets be honest. you are all comparing clips to movies. i personally have NO time for movies.

i like the devour thing rofl.

 hrizn hes talking about forsakens transformers 3d comment btw

 forsakEN I wouldn't go to see transformers 3d, as I'm on the dole, I can't afford that

Now to the 2nd part of what you said, why would you make, a CSS frag movie, solely on showing how good you are at editing? I thought the words CSS and frag, would give it away, that its more about being able to see the frags.

in a nutshell for me, movies progressed kthxbye~~

 Rings of Saturn When I saw disco ball I had to throw this in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-g6mUwDGM&feature=fvst

Anyway I care little for this, well, I watch movies/clips/edits etc from various games and I like to be entertained. However, I like to see decent frags rather than some random guys one deag down long.

I agree that new movies are pretty over the top with effects, and sometimes this is awful (mainly when I cant see the frag) but i do enjoy them. However one of my favourite movies is Alive, which I love more for the "added effects" than for much else. I like to see different things, originality, but clear originality in clips. The problem with 1 minute clips at the moment is that they are all too similar. Its like lets get this spraydown, add some colours and a smooth, there we go. Its like a sausage factory in a sense, because everyone seems so similar.

To be honest im not fussed, and feel free to flame this but i dont really care. its hard to argue when im on the fence, as I want to see videos that are engaging and exciting, and I agree with eka that 2 minute clips can be boring, yet I also see the potential for them. In terms of edit though i agree with hsf, that in many cases its painful to watch because of the pace. Flashing lights, crazy awp shots and swift transitions between frags are cool, but get boring pretty quickly. on the other hand, the same can be said for movies that showcase 3 minutes of someone getting a 5 man awp, because its simply not overly engaging.

Despite this, many clips of this nature are against top teams, and they CAN be good, i just need motivation to watch the whole thing. I loved vitriolic because it followed a team at lan as they played some really good teams (reason) and despite it being 9 minutes it was really good to watch.

Sorry for the boring/badly laid out/confusing post but just wanted to post my "thoughts".

TL;DR I like movies that keep me interested.

I have time for people who are able to give a good, constructive response to a serious debate,  hrizn and  kaenna , you've both showed that you're willing to put an argument forward for one, the other or an "on the fence" argument. The likes of  forsakEN , I have no time for those sort of comments. They're not constructive and they're just put into place to get some sort of reaction.

The idea of what I'm trying to put across is that the frag quality and the editing is in my opinion on a downward spiral. Yes the editing is more advanced, but it's not better than it used to be. Anyone can put flashing effects, or over exposed overlays on top of a clip, it's not difficult. The frag side of things, as  hrizn pointed out, is all thanks to that group of German source players( slink, krystal, xime and co. Also throwing in Ghost Pictures for their constant defending of krystal for apparently not cheating) that frag movies have become all about getting the most obscene shots against unknown mixes.

Because of this, the demand for these types of clips has become unmanageable and is making the source scene full of accusations about cheating. Most movie hero's are accused of cheating, have had a bust movie made about them or have been caught cheating. I'm not saying they're all genuine cheaters, but I'm not saying they're all legitimate players either.

 Rings of Saturn yeah. but for the record. you have to give slink some credit. as he is a damn good editor and a very good player. Ive played against krystal a few times and hes a mean player, albeit probably hacks haha. But yeah, generally i think they are to blame for the modern frags.

[youtube]ysawUaW4MeU[/youtube]

this is pure cheated

[youtube]FgCPnNZT0DI[/youtube]

that isnt

 Rings of Saturn

Could you not blame cssmixes for the rise in hacked clips. I know people mix outside of that, but in cssmixes your with and against randoms, which means that the consequences arent exactly terrible.

 hrizn

lol xiME

 hrizn , that tetris one was made by mRh, not sliNk.

 Rings of Saturn yeah ino. i just put that there for the krystal bit, not slink xD.

 kaenna css mixes came 2k10 this was wayy before that

true that, but eka that is cheated, believe me, no one can do that and btw, if u repeat this every time, u can see he aint even flicking, hes just aiming STRAIGHT ON the head, which is impossible when u dont even know hes behind no

 panz0r yes i know that is cheated rofl. im not sure why xime uploaded it, because there isnt really and anti-argument for that one. its a lock on.

It's not a lock on  hrizn , the crosshair goes far beyond the player he's shooting at. I've seen legitimate players do more extravagant flick shots than that.

if it aint cheated he wouldnt put his "comments disabled" thingy, and ye its definatly cheating.

Oh are we talking about cheated frags now?

[youtube]fCpLXTSSNDE[/youtube]

Check Mate. :D

 unizo thats me apparently

 hrizn didnt know u could talk dutch

Would prefer if we didn't take a detour from the topic. Anyone caught going off topic will have forum rights removed for one month.